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J: I'm James, my pronouns, are he him, I'm queer, and my real kink is actually data organization and protocol documents.

I: And I'm Iris. I use they them pronouns and my snake fallopian is giving me joy today.

J: It has come to Iris's attention that I have a 200 plus item Yes, No, Maybe sheet that I custom designed on Google Sheets because there's like a lot of good Yes, No, Maybe checklists out there. But I'm, you know, my kink is data organization and vertical documents. So I have issues like tiny little issues with like every single one I've come across, so I'm like: You know what? I just can't make my own. So I've got this template and I think I saved it over, so we'll be able to share it with it should be, in the episode description, a template of it. And there's an abridged version, which only has, I think, 26 items. It's just more manageable if you like. And then there's the full document, which I was looking at it. I'm like, Oh, there's things missing from this. There's there's kinks missing from the list, which is that really gets into like the minutia of stuff and has exactly 259 individual items subsection out by, you know, active participant versus receiving participant, as well as a filter ability like you can sort by, you know, whether or not genitals are involved, whether or not it involves restraints or it involves impact play or sensation play, whether it has verbal components. So it's really searchable, which I think is great. What are your thoughts on this kind of a monstrosity of a document that I shared with you?

I: I actually don't like the abridged version. I think the extensively long big version is perfect because when I'm doing scene stuff with people, I want all of the details. I want to make sure that I am getting all the information that I can, at least that people are willing to give so that I know going in what the risks are and being aware of what an individual might need but be interested in and just like this is a really good starter conversation for a lot of different things that not a lot of lists have covered. And I love that it's rainbow. When whoever's listening here sees this, you will see that there's a rainbow in the middle of it, and it's so pretty and beautiful and I love it. As a color coded for note taking and spreadsheets, it brings me joy. And then I like the third section before notes where it goes over on genital involvement and fantasies and restraints and like the different kinds of play, verbal versus non-verbal. I think that's really important. And so I'm just really vibing with this particular spreadsheet. Yeah, there's a couple of things missing, but you made this with the intention of “For you”, not necessarily for others. I don't….

J: Hold on. Caveat. I did not-. Uh, no no. I just…I need… because listen, there's some things on here that I'm expressly not interested in. This was meant to be literally as many kinks that I could either think of off the top of my head or were listed in other Yes, No, Maybe sheets I had seen. Just for our listeners at home to know this is not a list of my interests. My copy of this document, where I've filled it out, will not be shared with the public, though I will say what the abridged version. The reason it exists is because I made this document right before 2020 because the person I was dating at the time had heard me talking about, Yes, No, Maybe sheets and wanted to fill one out. And I sent them the big expansive one, and they were like, “This is really overwhelming.” Can we like start smaller? So I made the abridged version because it's just I think I totally agree with you from the perspective of the person receiving the document. I want as much information as I can get, as the person filling it out, especially if they're newer to the scene or, like, not super intense in their kink. I think the abridged version really helps with kind of getting your feet wet. And also, if you're overwhelmed by really large documents, it's just a lot more manageable.

I: Like, there's a couple of things where it's just like, Oh, like, it'd be really cool to like, involve like some sort of like medical component to the spreadsheet. So, you know, like health concerns that might come up like allergies.

J: That's a very good point.

I: For me personally in my experience of negotiation with others. I always tell them that I dislocated my hip back in the day because that left hip is still a little tender…. Yes, James?

J: I wasn't going to say anything. No, I was just going to be polite and not comment on having a hip injury making you sound much, much older than you are.

I: I am not that old, but..

J: I wasn't going to say anything.

I: We'll get into like negotiation a little bit more during this episode, but like having. A medical health conversation, I think, is really important and really essential for just knowing more about that person and how you can best take care of them. And that covers don't only like physical aspects and allergies, but also like mental health and that'll get into like aftercare and stuff.

J: Absolutely. Yeah, that's I think something that this Yes, No, Maybe sheet is definitely lacking in terms of like how to approach aftercare and like very literal like tangible medical things and psychological things. A Yes. No, Maybe sheet does not like a you hand this over and you're good to go. I think it's like a jumping off point for conversations, but I think having those written down would be really beneficial. So maybe I'll, uh, I'll revise this at some point, not before this podcast comes out.

J: This is Kinky Queeries, a podcast where you send in questions and we work out the kinks, or more often than not, work in the kinks. So this week's question is super cool because it wasn't sent to our podcast. But Iris, can you tell us where you got this question from, actually?

I: Yeah. So this is actually an old question that I received a while ago when I was teaching in public high schools, a variety of health education classes, and we had the fun anonymous question box. In the anonymous question box. I received the question “Is it OK to hit my partner when she asks me to hit her?”

J: Which is such a thoughtfully worded question. And it's also a really provocative question as well.

I: I love this question. I wasn't allowed to bring up these topics because funders in public health. But if the students are going to ask, I'm more than happy to answer and link the best ways that I can. And so we're going to kind of go over that answer, but a little bit longer than what I was able to give in a high school sex ed class.

J: Right. So I mean, the short answer is yes, right? I mean, if you and your partner talk about it and your partner asks you to do something and you're OK with doing something in a very specific context, you will talk about like how, where, when it's OK for you to hit her. Short answer is yes, it's OK. As long as you have discussed where on the body you hit this person where, you know, location wise, it's OK to do this action. You know, when like time of day or, you know, if it's something you obviously like, maybe this is a scene where it's like, OK, we are doing it from 9:15 a.m. to 10:45 a.m. And that's like, that's when this happens. Or you can have a more broad spectrum where it's just like, if we're at home and you want to smack me on the ass, like, you have my permission to do that until I revoke it. Like, you know, there's a broad spectrum of how you set up that consent, which we're going to get into more details about in a second. But basically, if you have consent, you've talked about the details of when it's OK to do this and like, you know, maybe no hitting on the face or like only hit my ass. Yeah, it's OK to do that. If you're both agreeing to do something because you are two consenting adults and they have talked out something and are both in a good state of mind and have willingly consented to something, there's no coercion, then yes, you can basically do whatever you want as long as everyone involved is consenting to it.

I: Yeah. And I just want to like be a little bit broader in that broader, I don't know with the exact word is I just want to expand upon that answer a little bit, too, because you talked about like when and where and how and like, I want to emphasize the how because sometimes like we can't assume that this means hand, but it could mean that somebody is bringing an implement into the situation. And we want to make sure that there's some sort of like education around and that like it is OK, when two consenting individuals are having this conversation and are doing it in a way where they are both able to have it fully and know the risks associated. But there is a difference between like. There also needs to be like some research that goes into it as well. I need to make sure that that is clearly stated like research has to happen as well for individuals to be able to consent so they know the full scope of what is going on. And pornography is not sufficient research most of the time because most pornography is garbage and is done effectively and accurately reflect these situations that we're referring to.

J: Well, and even when it's not garbage, it's something that is edited differently, lit differently. There is all this preproduction that you don't see. Like, you don't look at a Marvel movie and say, Oh yeah, if I get into a jeep, I can do it like Captain America does. No, you're not a stunt driver. So why would you expect yourself to be a stunt driver in the bedroom?

I: Right. And I'm just I'm specifically thinking of situations from some of my friends where like one specific situation that I was told and I have permission to say the story where someone consented to being hit with a belt but did not know that there was a belt buckle attached.

J: Oh God. Oh…

I: And was hospitalized because of that, so like…

J: Oh, fuck.

I: Well, they got the Achilles tendon because they missed. There's multiple points of research in that situation where it's just like, OK, where with belt, where with a belt should be hit? Where on the body should be hit? How are you utilizing the belt? What is your hand grip like? There's so many different things that someone will need to know before performing it on a human body. And so I just wanted to give that little bit of a clarification because I don't think that is brought up enough.

I: Now that we've had this lovely tangential conversation, let's get into some of the theories about that help support this answer that we initially provided.

J: So basically, the three key tenets of what we're talking about of like talking to someone and agreeing to something in advance and like making sure you're, you're avoiding like actively hurting them, even by mistake. Speak to a principle that's like really, really popularized in the BDSM community to the point where, like, it's known by the general public, it's the kind of thing that like you'll see on like a quirky little bumper sticker or something. I don't know, maybe not bumper stickers, but that's the kind of popularity of this phrase is: Safe, Sane, Consensual. And it basically speaks to these three tenets of like this is the requirement of playing in kink spaces where we're doing things that most of society is like, well, you don't hurt other people. But in this instance, someone wants to be hurt. They are asking you to hurt them. So to do that in a way that is ethical, you make sure you're avoiding serious harm, which like in that beilt example, you make sure you don't send someone to the E.R. or do something that could possibly send someone to the E.R.

I: Like, accidents happen

J: Of course. Like you're not like a terrible person for accidentally hurting someone, but it's your due diligence, especially as a dominant person to make sure you're doing the research like Iris was saying, to avoid accidents to the best of your ability. Obviously, no one's perfect. And then you also the same part I find really interesting because basically the idea of someone needs to be able to be able to give consent and your iris gave kind of like an edge sort of hand motion there. And I agree with that, which is where we get into things like, again, Risk Aware Consensual Kink, which we'll get into in a second. But for the beginners in the space, for the people that are like sticking to tried and true methods, you can't consent to something while you're drunk. You can't consent to something while you're high. You can't consent to something while you know under duress. Basically, you have to be of technical definition would be of sound mind and body, basically. Now there's a lot of abelism that could come into play there in terms of mental health. But this is again the beginner's guide to doing BDSM safely and then consent, which I would hope is pretty straightforward. The idea of being able to give enthusiastic consent, which even the term enthusiastic consent, I've been reading some really interesting articles about how, like in an asexual space that also kind of doesn't work. But again, if you're just beginning, if you are two or more average Joe people and you want to like experiment with BDSM, these are really great three tenants to just have in your back pocket.

I: I love that you brought up like enthusiastic consent within the ace community because I feel like when we're talking about consent, like the enthusiasm is person by person and like that conversation within like the sexual health sexuality community is really fantastic because it's really more like your miles may vary based off of the person that you talk to. For someone who is asexual, who is not sex repulsed, but it's just like sex indifferent like their enthusiasm or like the most, I'm using the air quotes right here, the most enthusiastic that that individual can be about it might just be like, “Sure, why not.”

J: Right. And as someone like a allosexual person saying, “Yeah, sure, I guess” that's not proper consent. I'm saying, like, “I guess,” from an allosexual person that's not going to count as consent, but from someone that's like asexual and sex-neutral as long as they've discussed it with you in advance, where it's just like, Hey, this is something that like, I'm neutral about in general, and then you were to suggest something to them that would be kind of your mileage may vary about what defines enthusiastic consent,

I: Right. And like, I feel as if the spreadsheet that you created really demonstrates that because you're if you're fitting within like the three or four range where it's just like dependent on circumstance or curious about and have mild interest. Like that's where more conversation happens. And if you are interested in doing something for the example of someone who is ace, you're going to have that longer conversation about their sexuality, what their interests are in etcetera, not just within this particular spreadsheet, but hopefully, preferably beyond the spreadsheet and what their enthusiasm looks like, but with their consent look like? What does it mean when they are happier and enjoying it? And what does that look like? Sound like? But also when the someone is not enjoying it? What does that look like? What does that sound like? What does the check in need to be in that particular circumstance?

J: We could do a whole episode about like what it looks like when someone's not having a good time. Because yeah, when you think of someone not having a good time, you're going to think someone's saying like, you know, being really loud and vocal or like crying and upset about it. But for me, if I have a bad time, I get really quiet and I stop reacting, which has put me in some situations where someone didn't know I was having a bad time. And you know, that's why conversations are so important. And obviously, it makes sense in the context of a podcast, but like something that is very, very true of kink, that's also true of sex. If you can't talk about it, you shouldn't be doing it. That's such a key takeaway. I would want people to have where it's just like if you're not able to communicate in some thoughtful way about what you're hoping to do with your partner or partners, don't do it. That's what's interesting about this original question, where it's just like she asked me to do this. Can I do it? Are you able to have a conversation with her about it? Because if you can do that, then you can do it. Yes. And I do want to amend not just talking verbally, but like, you know, if someone's not a very verbal person but wants to write something out instead or like whatever way you are effectively and functionally communicating with each other. That's a pretty much a prerequisite. I would argue for almost anything in human interaction, but very specifically for kink.

I: Yes. And so how you have demonstrated your communication is through a spreadsheet that is color coded. And that's fantastic. And something like that is not their cup of tea whatsoever. Neither have a conversation. I've had people who have like a list of questions on their notes in their phone that they ask people. I've had people being like, Oh, I've prerecorded questions that we can like, go through and like both answer. I -I've… I've done a lot of different things clearly, but there's different methods and you're going to figure out your own over time to best communicate and hopefully get the answers that you want when you're in that negotiation session.

J: And actually, as talkative as I am, I actually really love verbal communication, but about kink specifically, believe it or not, I can actually get really shy, which is why I made the spreadsheet because I had trouble asking for things I wanted. Like, I really like being spanked, but it's for some reason for me, it is really embarrassing to ask for that. So I made this spreadsheet as a way to basically info dump at someone. And if they see, Oh, James is interested in spanking, they get to choose if they bring it up or not. I'm not the one bringing it up and making a situation awkward. I've just presented so much information that they can look at that and be like, Oh, OK, James is interested in spanking and that's not my cup of tea, but he's also interested in biting. I'll talk about that instead. So that was sort of even for me, someone who really loves to talk. Having multiple forms of communication is really helpful to do. Do we want to talk about kind of going beyond safe, sane, consensual?

I: Yeah.

J: So RACK is an acronym for Risk Aware Consensual Kink, which again still is keeping consent in the forefront. But like we were talking about, there is a lot of kinks that are not inherently safe. Uh, knife play is not inherently safe.There's a lot of mind fuckery. And Iris, you were talking about hypno play that inherently fucks with sanity, and that's a very intentional, well, not sanity per se, but your your state of mind. You know, it fucks with your state of mind in a way that could arguably affect consent. But these are all things that people like to do, you know, and there's not something inherently wrong with that. But the way in which you approach them, you're you're sort of agreeing to different terms.

I: Yeah. And like for each different thing, there's like different means of being able to build systems of consent. And I'm going to use erotic hypnosis as the example, because that one's fairly complicated, to be quite honest. For the consent, like you have the verbal consent, you can have the spreadsheets and everything. But in the moment, it might be difficult to be able to opt out. And so that's why mechanisms are put into play into the mind to be able to opt out to revoke consent at any point in time. So one of my partners, she put basically this entire building structure within my brain where there are different rooms that she can enter and not enter into. As well as that, there is a miniature version of of me in my brain at all times that can opt out and wake me up. And that is not something that my partner has control over. That is something that there is a bit of consciousness still there. You can make sure that if I, no matter what state within hypnosis that I am in, that I am able to wake up and be like, I need out, something's wrong, I'm in a yellow space, et cetera, that I can be able to communicate that effectively. And having that kind of mechanism is important for me. Otherwise, there is a point in which there could be a breach of consent or boundaries can be stepped over. There's just like so many different hypotheticals and possibilities of things going wrong that would not be able to be communicated if I was fully hypnotized and did not have that mini me in my little house being able to like wave a red flag and being like, “Stop! Pause! We need to talk!” or “I need to shut this down completely!” or whatever the scenario may be.

J: Yeah. And that again involves a lot of forethought and planning and communication. And I was also going to say similar to that, for me, being under the influence is something that has such an appeal every time. I've never actually done this, but every time I get drunk, I want nothing more than to like, have someone like take care of me, like, domme the fuck out of me because I'm very, very cuddly and very, very like physical, touch oriented when I'm drunk. But I have never been able to negotiate that beforehand. So, you know, if I was drunk and someone came up to me while I'm drunk and offered to do that, that's not consent. I can't consent because I'm currently drunk. However, if I had met this person before, we had been talking for a while and we talked about this, and while I was sober, we both agreed, OK. The next time James is drunk, we're going to do this. That kind of removes that sane component from Safe, Sane, and Consensual. But under, you know, I am aware of the risk I am taking. You know, you can do things like that if you agree to happen ahead of time. I know a lot of people who really like weed, you know, if your high sex things while high I've heard, are great, but for it to be considered properly consenting, it's something that ideally is talked about ahead of time where it's just like, you know, the first time you meet someone, you say like, Hey, here's you know, carte blanche. If I'm high, I'm well sober, consenting to that, and I'll let you know if I revoke that consent.

I: And that's also like in the middle of something as well. So if you could like have negotiation ahead of time, you're in the middle of a scene and then you're just like, Oh, want to add X, Y and Z like, they're not of sane mind to give that because they might, they might be in an elevated headspace because of the scene you are in. So it's important to have that negotiation ahead of time. For substance use. Specifically, I do want to clarify that it is important to not only have that negotiation ahead of time, like no, that the next time James is drunk, like it'll be OK, but also checking in when James is drunk and being like, “Hey, we had this conversation before, I just want to check it again. This is still something you're interested in.” And let James respond because James has autonomy over their own being and what they want to happen and then take it from there.

J: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important emphasized that like whether you're in erotic hypnosis, whether you're in a consensual non consent scene, whether you're under the influence of substance, you should always be able to have a way to say no and always have a way to make things stop because that's just honestly basic decency and also a general requirement for kink. Yeah, I don't know if we really want to get into the history or do I pulled a bunch of quotes of like the history of the origins of Safe, Sane, Consensual and RACK and kind of why these two different terminologies became popular popularized in the BDSM community. I don't know if we have time to go into that right now, but maybe this is something we could post on like Twitter to talk about, like a kind of kink history like bonus. Like, we have this information. Basically, we're not just pulling Safe, Sane, Consensual and RACK of our ass. That's what I'm trying to say. I wanted to find something that explicitly said the invention of RACK was very intentionally made thinking about being Safe, Sane, and Consensual, but knowing there are exceptions to that rule

I: And that negotiation specifically goes beyond that.

J: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And actually part of Safe, Sane, and Consensual being almost a branding aspect for the BDSM community, I thought was fascinating. Consent as a concept is something that, like I would definitely encourage people to like, do more research into it and be, like, really well versed. And I want this to be a really good jumping off point. But you know, your mileage is going to vary, obviously. Definitely like look into the history that will post in the description of this episode, as well as talking things through.

I: I just wanted to get the one last little clarification that this is the tip of the iceberg. This is like a really quick, short, dirty podcast where we're talking about these concepts. But like, there's so much foundational work that goes underneath it that for people who are participating in the BDSM and kink community, it's really important to do your own research beyond just listening to us, just chat. And so we are going to be providing resources, but this is only some of the information Like go to sessions. There's a ton of like online kink education that is currently happening with the pandemic. And like, you can be learning so much and you can be getting so many different perspective. Utilize that! Listen to a ton of different people and figure out what works well for you in any of you and your partner or partners like that's important.

J: Absolutely. I completely agree. This is a jumping off point, but this is exactly like I was just the tip of the iceberg. But yeah, thanks so much for listening to us as we talk about some of our favorite things. If you've got a kinky question. Send us your queries at kinkyqueeries@gmail.com and also follow us on Twitter @kinkyqueeries. That's K I N K Y Q U E E R I E S, and we'll have our next episode ready for your eager ears in two weeks. That'll be February 22nd of 2022. I'm really excited about that date because it's 22222022. I'm just obsessed.

I: So many twos.

J: I'm really, really normal about that date.

I: Oh, sure sure.