This podcast has explicitly adult themes and language. Listener discretion is advised.

J: Well, hi, I'm James, and I'm a Virgo, actually.

I: Hi, I'm Iris. I use they them pronouns and I'm a Sagittarius.

J: Oh fuck, I forgot my pronouns.

I: My brain's going in a lot of different tangents, and maybe that's the food coma, and maybe that's not taking enough meds. Like, who knows?

J: Those are both bad things, but only one of them I can make fun of so…

I: Well I’m forgetful and also handmade pasta with homemade pasta sauce.

J: What? Oh my god. We can't have sexually explicit content on this podcast. We can't. We can't make content that is intentionally arousing. Don’t tell me about the pastaaaaaaa.

I: Let me let me rephrase. Sorry. (attempts to verbally makes this sexy) It was handmade pasta

J: Uhhhhhhhh!

I: With a beautifully, wonderfully gourmet sauce

J: listeners. This just in. I am going to nut about pasta.

I and J: laughing

I: I eat like half a pound of pasta before this and I regret everything.

J: So this is kinky queeries. A podcast where you send in your questions and we work out the kinks, or more often than not, work in the kinks. Today's question has nothing to do with our cold open. A friend of ours actually reached out to us, which was really exciting. This is our first listener question, which I'm just insanely hype about. And this friend said So I was wondering what your guys's take was on gatekeeping in the kink community. I've experienced a lot of quote. You don't subscribe to my kink, therefore you're not kinky enough, unquote. It's a big all or nothing vibe. It hasn't been for everyone, but these people are absolutely out there or I just have to justify my own preferences like they're not valid, which I know isn't true, which is a pretty long question. I've kind of summed it down to our episode title, which is basically, “Am I kinky enough?” to which when our friend sent us this question, we, you know, we wanted to save our response from on the show as best we could. But just the immediate reaction is like, you don't have to justify yourself!

I: Yeah, yeah. I went on a fucking tirade and I think this was like still during the workday for both of us. And we're in this group chat and I'm like, Hold up. This meeting is no longer important.

J: These expense reports can wait. I need to respond to this message. Yeah, no. It's a good question, though, because I think that as much as I really, really love the kink in media and community, there is absolutely as with almost any community, a good deal of gatekeeping. To some degree, it's understandable in the sense that this is a community that can garner a lot of ire from outsiders, so it invokes this sense of caution. However, there's no need to be an asshole. It's really easy not to be an asshole, actually, if you can believe it, but I think it's a good question. And the short answer is, of course, if you identify as kinky, you're kinky. Like, done end of sentence and kink is a spectrum. It's not like a one size fits all sort of thing.

I: I'm just thinking of, so we're titling this episode “Am I kinky enough?” And that's really the essence of this particular question. But also that creates the question of can someone be too kinky?

J: Oh, I mean, think of that.

I: And then on top of that, my brain went into a completely different direction of like, no, we have not kinky enough and we have too kinky and like just right. Like a little too like too warm, too cold. Just right. The bear thing…..

J: Goldilocks?

I: Yes, Goldilocks! Thank you.

J:You could kink up Goldilocks. Real nice.

I: Oh, super easy. But it also brings into the question like an us versus them.

J: Mm hmm. Which kind of defeats the purpose of a community that we already have this us versus them like people who are in the king community, people who practice BDSM kink fetish, et cetera, against what we tend to call the vanilla community, which is basically everybody else that doesn’t fit into the kink community. Sorry, my brain's like in those wild spaces. Like now we have this hierarchy, a hierarchy of what is considered standard or normal, and I'm using both of those words in quotes in society versus the kink community. But now has this inherent hierarchy, and it's not like the fun hierarchy of leather competitions or anything like that or like anything that's negotiated, we're creating this potential insular ladder within the community.

J: One, it prevents people from having fun. If you say, Oh, you're not kinky enough, so you can't hang out with us like nobody's going to benefit. I mean, I guess the person saying that gets a little rush of being superior to everyone else. But if you haven't negotiated a degradation scene in advance, then that's not really fun or cool. And I think, yeah, this kind of ladder you're describing that is brought up in this question. It's pointless if it doesn't matter if you can handle getting like beaten with like a heavy wooden paddle or like. All you can handle is fuzzy handcuffs like you don't win an award. I mean, I guess in a leather competition, you could possibly win an award, but that's a different context. You don't win an award for being the kinkiest person. You're not inherently better than someone else because you have different kinks, and it's also putting a value on something that is really hard to quantify, right? Like for one person, anything that's impactful or paying play might be really, really challenging for someone with a low pain tolerance that might be really kinky to them. But something like sensory deprivation might be a tuesday for them, whereas the absolute inverse could be true for another person. Kink is such an individualized experience to attempt to quantify it as what's more kinky than something else. It's just such a unique experience that the I mean the exercise and doing it for a personal, introspective adventure, I would find quite fun, but doing it as like a competitive thing or as a way to like, keep people out of a communal space, it feels pointless and unnecessarily mean.

I: I'm trying to think from a perspective of like why someone would gate keep the commune. From someone, if someone is identifying as kooky or has tendencies that fall into bdsm or kink, why do this? Because like the community as a whole has a bunch of sub communities and when I'm reading this question that we received, I'm thinking of all those different sub communities and what is considered not like legitimate, but like what gets more time? What is considered, not necessarily more mainstream. But when you go to conferences, when you go to events like what tends to be allowed and what isn't. And people tend to promote like the more edgy stuff and like, that's where like, yes, there should be time and education around edge play. It's really important to have that. But then there are less communities that are getting representation and you're getting less exposure to those communities as well. And I'm wondering if that's an aspect of it.

J: Yeah, the idea of gatekeeping as a means of resource allocation or protection of resources

I: Or potentially legitimizing those things, like the number of conferences that I've been to, where there is nothing pertaining to age play at the conference where that is a fairly common kink that people play with. They go up, they go down like you can be any age that you possibly want to be. And that's pretty cool and fun to play with and to experiment with, experiment with. And it can be intersected with so many other kinks and with different dynamics. And it's kind of put down upon and some of the conversations that I've had with members of the community. And I'm just wondering like, is that not considered legitimate, legitimate kink? Is that not kinky enough, even though it seems fairly kinky?

J: I argue with age play in particular. I don't think anyone would argue that's not kinky. I think that's a situation of I'm going to yuck someone else's yum in that particular instance. Because I mean, I can't imagine someone who would argue that age play isn't very kinky. I think the fact that it's not present at conventions is more that it's not a kink people like to advertise. I imagine so.

I: Do you think this question is stemming from there, like the person who asked this, they're getting yucked for their yums?

J: I think it's more this person is. This friend of ours is more on the outskirts of entering kink like on that borderline from vanilla to flavorful, you know? And so when you're like, Hey, you know, I'm new to the kink scene, my kink is at the fuzzy cuffs, right? The generic, you buy it at a gag gift store, but then you realize, Oh, I like this a little bit more than just as a joke. People that are like hardcore, like wearing all leather, aren't going to see that as quote, kinky enough. They're going to kind of brush someone like that off. But that's that doesn't invalidate their kink. I think it's the nature of this question. I might be wrong, but my interpretation was like, just because you're not decked out in leather and having someone whip you with a cane doesn't mean you're not kinky. Like you can like the fuzzy cuffs and still be kinky because bondage is not part of vanilla sex. Feathers and sensation play is, technically speaking, not part of vanilla sex. It's the same thing as being queer, right? As long as you're not allosexual, cisgendered and heterosexual, you could be queer. It's not a Are you queer enough? It's are you not cis het, you know?

I: But we have those conversations in the queer community, too. For pan and bisexual and asexual and aromantic people and non-binary people, and specifically people who have penises and are non-binary people who are told they are not enough and they are not queer.

J: Right. And I would argue the people doing the gatekeeping there are very defensive and very reactionary because again, a lot of the world is kind of against them or doesn't understand them. So I understand their defensiveness. However, that's not how you build communities, and we are stronger and happier when we're a team, in my opinion. I would say stronger in terms of the queer community and in terms of the kink community like the more the merrier, right? Like why would you keep someone off the playground? And again, there's a sense of superiority, a sense of power that can come from gatekeeping. But in in the space we are talking about, you've got to have consent before you invoke power dynamics. So I would argue when people make those claims, when people do that, gatekeeping both in the queer community and in the community, I fundamentally think they're wrong and that they shouldn't be doing that.

I: So you've brought up two different things for my brain. Do you mind if I comment on them?

J: Please do. Yeah, that's the whole. The whole kit caboodle,

I: I know. But like, this is going to go on like a wild side tangent. And so I just want to give that headsup.

J: I love it.

I: You brought up individualism and classism based off of what you just said. Individualism, as in my kink, in my experience of kink. And when I think kink is is superior to you.

J: Which I would argue is a lot of gatekeeping like that's the core of it.

I: Right. And so I want to bring that up and make that really apparent based off of where this conversation is going and also with the examples that you were giving. I want to bring up classism with I'm not decked out in leather. No, I don't have the fancy canes. No, I couldn't get a nicer flogger than what I could get for 20 bucks. You know why? Because we're all dirt fucking poor.

J: Right? Leather is expensive.

I: And then for anybody who is vegetarian or vegan like that, stuff's hard to come by. And finding a really good maker is really fucking difficult and is also stupid expensive.

J: I mean, admittedly not to go on a tangent about the quality of leather. It's very expensive, but when you do buy it, it's an investment and it will last you a very long time. However, the entry price is classism, just plain and simple, and I think there's there's nothing wrong with being like, proud of your leather collection, being proud of your 500 dollar, gold studded flogger. I don't know why you would need a gold studded flogger

I: That sounds uncomfortable to hold, to be quite honest.

J:It's about the esthetic Iris. It's not about the function

I: As an aesthetically oriented person. Fuck that shit. I want a comfortable handle.

J: You can be proud of those things and you can talk about them. But if someone shows up and they've got, you know, again, the bargain bin discount sale flogger, if they've got, you know, one of those fabric harnesses that you can find on Amazon for like $5, someone can show up in that and you don't have to think less of them as a kinky individual. And of course, if your kink is very expensive leather and very specific types of floggers, then like, that's your kink and there's nothing wrong with it. But just because you're not compatible with a person you're talking to is no reason to be rude to them.

I: And I also want to point out, like we keep mentioning leather and like all these different particular items, but I also want to expand upon that. Like the latex community, that shit's expensive.

J: Oh yeah, it is.

I: It's like wildly expensive and the upkeep. And like, you know, when you buy that it will die one day, it will get holes. It's not going to last forever and it's still that wildly expensive. But anybody who wants to do any sort of costuming, if anybody wants a pop hood, if anybody like anybody at all for like pony play, as somebody who loves pony play, I can't afford any of that gear. That stuff's wildly expensive. I made my own hooves. They're made of coconuts and I get to clip. Clop around the house sometimes, but I can't buy like actually nice hooves. I don't just have like hundreds of dollars sitting around for those kinds of materials, and I feel like that's really legitimate of most people's experiences. For at least one point in time with kink life, which most likely more than one point in time, you can't just get everything. And if you don't, you don't have to look the part. You don't have to know everything other than like what you're interested in.

And sometimes that takes experimentation and thought process, but you don't have to know it all, and you don't have to have it all to be part of the community.

J: Absolutely. And beautifully said, by the way.

I: It wasn't scrambled.

J: No, no, no. The bit at the end. You don't have to know it all, and you don't have to have it all to be part of the community because even the people that are like, All right, if you're still kinky, name me, three of their songs like those people don't know it all either, because it's not possible

to know it all. It's like I work in video editing and one of the softwares he uses after effects, and it's an amazing tool. You can do almost anything in it, just like you can do almost anything. But there's so much that it is literally not possible to know everything about after effects I have tried.

You can't know it all. And just like kink, there's too much. You cannot be an expert at all of it, nor should you try to be. That's, you know, Jack of all trades. Master of none. Yeah, I liked what you said that I thought it was really poetic and about latex specifically, it wanted to chime in not just classism with latex and with leather, but is sizism the word I want to use? Fatphobia?

I: It can be fatphobia, but it's also like antibody diversity.

J: Yeah, both of those spaces, I would say latex more than leather, because leather, I found a good variety of sizes thanks to the bear community. But in latex, there is so little size diversity I am. I would not consider myself these skinny twink of my dreams. I'm I'm striving towards that, but I'm I'm just not. I'm not that large either. I'm fairly short and someone with like large enough hands can take a pretty good hold on my waist. I can't find any latex in my size at the shops I go to.

I: You need to get custom is the thing. Most latex that is pre-made will never fit the average person's body.

J: Jight? Well, and that's part of the classism, though too, right? Like it's classism and a lack of body diversity that the things that are accessible are only accessible to the very skinny, typically pretty people and the custom things are only available to the rich. That's, you know, if those are the parameters for our community, we're going to have a pretty shit community, you know?

I: Right. And like as somebody who I've been told most of my life and like, I have really wild body dysmorphia, so it's hard for me to see it. But a lot of people have told me that like, I am a fairly thin human being, that I'm like their goal in quotes and I'm 165 pounds.I cannot fit in anything that I find unless I want it custom-made like it is just not possible. Mostly because my ass is too big and I take pride in that. But…

J: But frankly, ass is the backbone of the community. Fat ass.

I: Thank you. I'm glad that I can make my ass. I am. No, let me rephrase that. I am glad that I can bring my ass into this community and allow it to be help uplift some individuals.

J: Is your is your apps available for service? Is your ass here at our disposal?

I: For our for some services, not all. As someone who doesn't like bottoming for impact whatsoever. No, but I'm sure that we can find something else to do with my ass here.

J: Thank you for your service.

I: No problem. As an ass, I like to bring my ass around.

J: Good. And this question doesn't really touch on this. But like other problems in the Kink and BDSM community include abelism and racism and classism, like we've mentioned, but just there's a lot of fetish- fetishization. There we go. There's a lot of fetishization of anyone who doesn't look like a stereotypical skinny white person, and that's hugely problematic. Do I have a solution to how to fix it? Aside from on the individual level, no. On the individual level, it's fairly simple don't be an asshole. I guess the community is made of individuals, so if we do enough work on the individual level or change the community? Yeah, I mean this question and it's a specific thing for a specific person who's feeling like they're not seen as they're trying to join a larger group. But it also speaks to a larger problem of just I mean, the whole point of kink is not fitting the mold. Why would we make another mold for ourselves?

I: And the whole point of having all these sub communities is so that people can feel heard and so they can experiment and figure out if they like that sub community or not. Whoever is creating this continuous gatekeeping in the community is actually doing a huge disservice to the community, because if we have people who feel like they cannot belong or that they do not belong or they're going to be gate kept, I think that's the term…

J: The past tense of keep is kept here.

I: Not only are you doing a disservice to that person as an individual, but that person could potentially bring something really amazing to the community as well. They have knowledge and experiences that we don't have, necessarily. They're their own expert of them, and they might have creativity and they might do some weird shit and people will probably love it.

J: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I completely agree. A diversity of opinions comes from diversity of people. And heaven forbid, that kink is all of the same opinion. That kink is all of the same cookie cutter thing. That's not a kink. That's that's vanilla wearing a hat like you like, ewww.

I: And I like hats, but I don't want that hat.

J: (starts laughing)

I: Hey, I'm sorry, I had to throw that in there. I know they won't appreciate that.

J: No, don't apologize. Sorry. In the notes I wrote down, I mean, we recovered this. I'm just obsessing over the idea of kink as a spectrum and like, does it benefit anyone to want to put, you know, kink on a sliding scale with an x axis and a y axis? No. Do I want to do it anyway?

I: No, no. It's that's like putting gender on like a sliding scale that doesn't make any sense. It is an amorphous blob that is continuously fluctuating based off of societal norms.

J: That's a good point. You're not like wrong.

I: Make a blob, make a 3D model, like, do that. That's much more interesting.

J: Ooh! Don't tempt me.

I: I will tempt you! This is your new challenge. Congratulations.

J: Oh, I have too much work to do. Do I have time to learn 3D modeling in a week?Maybe. Actually similar to that concept of like gender and sexuality shouldn't be on a 2D spectrum. It's far more complex than that, which I agree on completely for, like a community wide, society wide lens. Not everyone, of course, but I feel like an individual could look at their own interpretation of gender, look at their own interpretation of sexuality and look at their own interpretation of kink. And like, similar to a yes, no, maybe sheet you have, you know, your own ranges of kinks. Like, for me, I love a blindfold that's in like the kinky 101 starter kit.But on the other end of the spectrum, I am a big fan of like heavy verbal degradation, which is very intense for some people and needs very careful negotiations. So you don't really hurt someone psychologically. But there's like a huge range in there and that's just for like one individual. So if one individual can, like have the self referential understanding of I am not one kink, I am not one level of kinkiness, then I feel that that idea can be spread to the idea of a community where it's just like a community is not one level of kinkiness. If someone wants to show up with their little fuzzy cuffs and their kitten wimp and say, like, Hey, I'm here for a good time. Not everyone is going to want to play with them, and that's fine. But someone might. Someone might want to play with them, and that's worth protecting and worth opening the gates for.

I: And belittling that individual could make it so that they are just never part of the community. They're given a bad taste in their mouth, and because of that, they're just never going to enter it.

J: And that's awful. The idea of denying someone access to kink, that's what like conservatives do. Like, don't do that. To deny someone something that would bring them joy or bring them satisfaction feels like the least human things that one could do.

I: You said that's what conservatives do, but they tend to be the best kinky motherfuckers I've ever met.

J: Yeah, but on the surface, they're like, sex should be with the lights off missionary and neither partner orgasms.

I: Different conversation for a different day. It just made me laugh.

J: You know, I honestly, if this podcast about education and community and conversation, yes, it's also about making my friend laugh.

I: Weee! Yay!

J: That's the goal.

I: But yeah, like kind of similar here. Like, I love so many different kinks and I love dynamics a lot and being able to play around with dynamics. And sometimes that means like the smallest butt plug I can find with a lovely little bejeweled flare base is like all I really want, and that's fine. And like that brings me joy in its own little way. And sometimes I don't know who ever told you this, but causing gender dysphoria.

J: You did tell me that's an interesting yours, which is very intense.

I: That I have this edgy tendency that like, I want an individual to cause gender dysphoria to me and like, we'll talk about it ahead of time. I'll know, like the different options of what can happen. But like, I just want to feel like shit at the end, I want to feel all over the fucking place and I want my brain and my body to be completely disconnected. And you know what? I don't know another trans person who wants that experience, and that's super fair and valid.

J: It's like, yeah, politely, as a fellow trans person, every time you talk about that, I'm like, Your king is not my king. And that's OK. I'm not. I'm not going to kink shame, but I'm sitting here…

I: You can kink shame.

J: I guess, is king shaming your thing?

I:I think I just don't give a fuck. What are you going to do? Make me not do it? No, I’m still going to do it.

J: Well, spoiler alert, kink's shaming is my kink.

I: So go for it.

J: No, I'm not. Another time. But what for and for me, I'm just like. And actually, that's a really great example because I could never like something that intense. I would not be my cup of tea. It wouldn't be…

I: Giving or receiving?

J: Receiving. I haven't considered doing. Worth considering though. But on the receiving end, you, you know, despite feeling like shit at the end of it, you get something positive out of it. There's a sense of satisfaction, right? Or something that you want out of it, right? So if I were to do something like that, I would just be like shit. There would be no satisfaction for me. But if you were to put things on a ladder, which I know we should be doing, but if we were to put something on a ladder, I like kind of a watered down version of that. I love the idea of being called a pretty boy of, you know, being referred to as masculine, but being dressed very feminine. I like gender fuckery not to the point of dysphoria, but like a fuckery of it. That's fun for me. Also, I should actually just be called a pretty boy all the time. I've decided that severe constant in my life.

I: Oh, so, good to know.

J: Thank you. But even knowing that I'll turn my brain just straight to jelly in terms of like your something that would, you know, if you look at it at face value is considered very kinky like putting it on like a one to ten scale argument could be made. That's like nine or ten. I would be interested in something that on that seems ago girl could be considered like probably a five, maybe a four. But they're both kinks that neither of them is less of a kink just because they're less intense.

I: Yeah, that makes it to me.

J: Yeah, intensity alone does not make a kink, I think would be the key takeaway of being, quote, kinky enough. Probably the friend of ours that was asking if they're probably not very intense. I mean, I don't know their kinks. Maybe this friend of ours has a lot of really intense kinks, and we just don't know when they're around a bunch of not great people. But I'm operating under the assumption that this friend of ours probably just doesn't have very intense kinks, but that doesn't make them not kinky. Intensity is a descriptor of kink. It is not a definition of kink.

I: Well, also like, what do you mean by intensity? Because the intensity can be really intense for two or more individuals who are participating, but doesn't have to be intense for like anybody who is around, they might not even notice that something is happening.

J: That's a very good point.

I: So it just feels like stop giving a shit about this person and what they like to do as long as it is not hurting others unless that is asked for.

J: Negatively impacting others. Let's say that because hurting is such a broadly used term in the community. TLDR Yes, you're kinky enough. You're listening to this podcast. You're kinky enough. Don't worry about it. Thank you so much for listening as we talk about our favorite things. If you've got a kinky question, send us your queries at kinky queeries@gmail.com and follow us on Twitter at @kinkyqueeries. That's k i n k y q u e e r i e s. We'll have our next episode ready for your eager ears in a two weeks that'll be March eighth, 2022. This look, and it's so tender, I'm feeling emotional and like a good way.

I: Yay!