J: This podcast has explicitly adult themes and language. Listener discretion is advised.

I: But now it's in messenger. You can now see that I fixed all of the auto corrects because it kept being “minister” instead of “kinkster”. So I love how my computers corrected me on that.

J: The the ministry of…. You've heard of the Ministry of Silly Walks. Now get ready for the Ministry of Silly Floggers, of which you are the chairman.

I: Yay!.

J: Hey, Speaking of pup hoods, I saw one. One pup hood at Weho Pride, this last weekend.

I: Only one?

J: I know I was really disappointed. There were far too many cops and not enough kinksters. Like, I saw a lot of leather daddies…

I: Fucking same

J: Which is safe territory. But I am excited to see how L.A. Pride goes because they're separate this year, which is weird.

I: Okay. I mean, Boston Pride isn't a thing this year. And I missed Pittsburgh Pride because I was in Mexico, so…

J: Nooooo… I'm sorry, dude. I'm just really excited about this topic. This is one of my favorite things to be petty about during Pride and I love Pride Month, so let me read the…

I: (quietly) Happy Pride!

J: Oh yeah, Happy Pride! This is Kinky Query is a podcast where you send in questions and we work out the kinks or more often than not, work in the kinks. My name is James. My pronouns are he/him. And I've been on testosterone for two whole weeks.

I: My name is Iris. I use they/he pronouns and my ribcage hurts like a motherfucker.

J: Oh, it's I mean, that's a very sensitive spot to get tattoos, so I don't I mean, I feel bad for you, but, you know, I don’t.

I: I've heard it's slightly better than knees.

J: Ooof. Well, yeah, there's just too many bones. Too many bones there. So our question today is so originally I was like, okay, so are we going to do the cliche like should kink be a pride? Like, it's obvious that that's like a softball for us. That's too easy. And Iris found this really great tiktok that we're kind of taking some inspiration by if you want to talk, right. Because you so lovingly transcribed it for us to talk about which I love.

I: I wouldn't say like, transcribe it. I just took some quick ass notes being like, these are some of the answers that we're given and the prompts for this particular tock, which we will include in our list of links as usual, instead of having these arguments pertaining to should kink be at pride, what can we do outside of those debates? And basically they say why they're wrong. It's just like a different way of responding instead of getting into these debates.

J: Basically the question pares down to how to respond to quote, “No kink at pride.” This is from the TikTok user pupamp I believe is the username basically like taking away the argument of like having to defend kink at pride and more just taking it as the approach of like, hey, here's why the way in which you're being defensive right now doesn't make any sense. From my perspective, I like to take the historical lens with it too. Kink has been at Pride longer than we've had pride parades. Kink has been at Pride the whole time. You can't have pride without kink. If I don't see a pup hood at a pride parade, it's not a pride parade. There's no leather daddies. There's no pride.

I: Exactly. And like as a kinkster who is gone to Pride is a pony and is like a demon sorceress just covered in leather and carrying around a fucking flogger like that should be normal as long as you don't hit anybody with said flutter because public spaces, but like being able to show and perform the personas that people have during kink should be fine to be able to wear a pup hood, to be were able to wear on one's leather jacket or vest or most recently that I saw their leather cloak.

J: Oh!

I: Like what a fucking fashion statement. I was really jealous actually…

J: Talk to me wizard daddy. Oh, my God.

I: [fits of giggles]

J: I will say, here is my one protest against leather at Pride. It's June. It's hot. Please hydrate. If you're wearing leather, drink water. That's not a suggestion. It is a requirement. That's the only. The only note I have against leather.

I: It goes beyond leather. People should be able to wear latex of pride, and that's fine. And be aware that, like, sometimes people have latex allergies and maybe you need to scoot away so that they don't go into anaphylactic shock.

J : Also drink water.

I: Also drink water. Sometimes you just want to be skimpy and slutty and look like a whore. And you know what? Good for fucking you. Being a whore is fun.

J: Also drink water, but more importantly wear sunscreen. Because I was dressed like a whore this Pride and I got sunburnt real bad. I think you could still see a kind of.

I: A little bit…

J: I was wearing like a mesh shirt. So I have mesh pattern sunburns. Please wear sunscreen. Please drink water daily.

I: Scaly James!

J: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to break out my Crowley cosplay again. It'll be fun. People at Pride as long as you're not violating public decency like laws, like don't have your dick out. Other than that…

I: There's San Francisco when you can do that, actually. Well, no, you can't have a dick out. You are allowed to be completely nude other than a sock on your dick.

J: Oh, that's… I didn't know that actually. Is that for pride specifically or Folsom Street Fair?

I: I want to say both. And I think and I believe there's another another event where it's just like full on nudity other than socks over decks.

J: Damn, I love the. But admittedly, that's going to be San Francisco. Your local legislation is going to vary. And we're not really here to talk about like the rights and wrongs of local legislation. It's more like those are the consent forms by which we as a society are participating with. That's sort of the situation at Pride. I think one of the good responses to this in terms of like the whole like kink at pride when people are like there shouldn't be can get pride. What is the line then at that point? Because if we look at the history of pride and we look at, you know, the first Stonewall riot, the first right…wait, there were several rights….the famous Stonewall riot in 1969. A lot of people were getting arrested because of cross-dressing laws in New York City that were present at the time. Basically, you needed to be wearing three clothing items of your assigned gender or else you could be arrested. Now, what I'm currently wearing right now, including my underwear, is a total of three articles of clothing. I'm wearing a shirt, I'm wearing shorts, I’m wearing underwear. I'm not going to count socks. If we can talk some somewhere and more articles of clothing, our socks, gendered, whatever. Not the point. The point is, if you get down to something like that, like everything you'd have to be wearing would have to be your assigned gender at birth. And we're talking the 1960s about saying like, women can't wear pants. That's saying, you know, men can't wear certain types of blouses. That's saying like, people are the gender that's stamped on their license. Like, it's ridiculous, frankly. And also, that's the type of attire policing that I feel kind of comes to my mind when people are saying, no kink at pride.

It's like, Okay, where are you drawing the line? In a modern context, we wouldn't say that like, oh, you know, of course drag queens are allowed at pride, but cross-dressing is a drag can be a kink. Various types of drag can be a kink. Where are we drawing the line here? We going to say like, oh, well, leather daddies. And they're like cute little leather hats and the little other harnesses are allowed, but like, you can't wear a pup hood. Why are we drawing the line there? Where where is the line? And who has the authority to draw that line?

I: Exactly. And like, part of this is just like purity culture in the United States and trying to make things that are sexualized when like literally Pride is about sexual freedom, that is sexual and gender and identity-related freedom. It just doesn't make sense to be having this argument around this particular event. I can't go to a ren fair and wear more leather there and get less flak about that than Pride. And that doesn't make any fucking sense.

J: Right? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And I think a really good response to someone who's really championing no kink at pride is asking them, okay, define kink. Because I think a lot of times too when people say, quote, no kink at pride, they don't actually know what they're talking about. They're sort of just repeating, again, this sort of puritan removing sex from the equation ideology now. And sometimes people do come from a good place where it's just like, well, you know, asexual people are also at pride and they don't want to see sexual things. Kink is, as we have said repeatedly on this podcast, not always sexual. Also, I'm pretty sure even when Irisyou were just saying, like, you know, you'll bring a flogger, but you're not going to flog someone.

I: Yeah, because no one's having sex at Pride. They're going out to bars afterwards and they're doing it when they get home, but they're not doing it fucking at pride for the most part. Like there's no public displays of sexual acts, and that includes kinksters. The argument isn't about like the actual performance of kink, it is about how people are dressing.

J: Yeah, it's about how people are dressing. And it's about what's so funny about it too, is that like a lot of times when we are talking about kink attire, it's actually more clothing than the non kink attire. If I had a dollar for every like young strapping gentleman wearing a jockstrap and nothing else, I'd have enough money to buy more leather leather’s expensive. But like that, pride. People are buying so little clothing because it's hot and because it's hot, both in the temperature sense and the physical traction sense it's doing. I'm just I'm sweating my ass off what you're doing. You know, any any type of fetish gear actually tends to cover up more. So, you know, we're talking about purity, culture it's definitely not usually about decency. It's more people not wanting to think about things that they don't understand, which if we're talking about the nature of being queer and being a member of the LGBTQ+ community, our whole deal is people don't really understand what we're doing until we explain it to them slowly and carefully.

I: And you're touching upon one of the answers that was given in the tick ock is just like, Are you uncomfortable with kinksters? Because your comfortability does not mean that you have the right to gatekeep.

J: Exactly. I think that's an excellent point. But people don't have to be kinky to be at Pride. That's not a requirement. If you are uncomfortable with the kink attire that may be present at Pride, it's not someone else's responsibility to take care of your discomfort. I think it's also a lot of like the the pride is constantly moving. It's all you're trapped there. It's going to be there for maybe all of 5 minutes.

I: And I think this is like where like during Pride Month there are family friendly events and they're like 18 plus events just for this particular reason.

J: Yeah. And a lot of these arguments are also seeming to misunderstand what pride is. Some of them think it is just the parade. Some of them think it's just the festival. And, you know, it's going to vary city by city, what's offered. I think exactly like you said, there's different events for different demographics, like you're not going to have minors at the 18 plus events. But conversely, there's also family friendly events as well. Or like even in situations like the Pride Parade itself, when I was in Chicago, I noticed all the like corporate and family friendly stuff was at the beginning of a parade. And of course, that's what they aired on TV and that's what the families were there for at the beginning. But the back half of the parade is where things got wild and fun, and that's when the TV airing stopped and the parents went home with their children. I think the understanding that, like pride is more than just one thing and the way in which someone's going to act as an audience member in a parade is different than how they're going to act at a music festival. And I think taking that into account for the the wide spectrum of what pride is, is something that people forget when they're toting this whole no kink at pride language.

I: Another thing that was brought up in the TikTok, and I really appreciate it because it's really critiquing like where a lot of the narratives that we're having right now is the question, what belongs at Pride more? Banks? Cops? Or kinksters?

I: Yeah, obviously it's kinksters. And a lot of like, you know, when you look at the history of pride, cops being at Pride is a relatively new phenomenon. This is something you really brilliantly said, not only in the video, but in most of the things we talk about. People need to learn their queer history. It will not be taught to you in school, and it's important to go out and find reputable sources that will talk to you about like what the history of being queer is. The cops have been our enemies for a very, very long time. Cops are not there to protect us. The cops actually, legally speaking, are not required to protect or serve anyone. That is actually not their job. And that's another court case we could get into. But historically speaking, cops were not at pride or cops were trying to stop pride. And the people that were protecting the pride parade are your leather daddies, are your butches, are your dikes on bikes. Those organizations, the people that you know in the media are portrayed as, you know, the like scary queers. Those are the people that are protecting us and those are the people that are actually involved in our community.

I: Part of the change of pride culture that we're seeing in several different cities like I know that Pittsburgh is currently going through a change and that a lot of it is being led by a local trans woman color group. Boston Pride is not happening this year officially, and it's really just the dike march that's happening this year because the board for Boston Pride disbanded for being racist and transphobic and some of their actions historically. And I think these are going to lead to better pride events where cops won’t be invited, that trans and people of color are more front and center, which makes sense for what pride is historically and should be today. And it doesn't involve cops, and it doesn't involve fucking Bank of America or any other big massive business throwing garbage into the streets, that is just going to go on a landfill in the long run.

J: Agreed to completely. We can have pride without all of the corporations and I understand why corporations are there. It is because parades cost money to put on and the corporations are paying for that. But at the same time, I think the corporations should be able to just donate to these organizations without getting these big advertising opportunities. I understand that will prevent them from donating because corporations only care about advertising and optics.

I: Right, but if they were placed towards the back where they should be and having the actual LGBTQ organizations towards the front where they should be. Because I remember there was a year and pride where it's like Bank of America, TD bank, Kohl's, Wal-Mart, all these fucking big ass corporations. It was fucking massive. It was like maybe like 2 hours long…

J Oh wow…

I: Of organizations marching. And the last group was the Stonewall group.

J: Oooooh my goodness.

IL It's just fucking abysmal. And there's no reason why that should occur. LGBTQ based and led organizations need to be at the front if we're going to be keeping these banks and other things, but I think we should just get rid of them altogether and just have it be an actual queer event.

J: Now my counter argument for that would be if you look at something like the Macy's parade, they have like their big showstopper or whatever at the end. So that might have been the parade logic there, but that doesn't really work well for pride because most people are leaving midway through. Not everyone is staying the whole time. You're there for the beginning or I mean, because we're gay, we're all kind of late. So we're there for like the second or third group, you know. But it's the optics of that look bad exactly like you said, it's not really about like the parade structure. It's more about the parade being led. And I think that's that's a wonderful way to put it as well. Also, while we're in the devil's advocate corner here, because this is something that makes sense to me logically, but I'd love to find a solution around it. The one reason I can think of that cop's not allowed in pride, but allowed near pride is when you're blocking off city streets having police officers, again, I would love to disband the police, but since we're not currently in opposition, the idea of having officers blocking off the streets to prevent any sort of shenanigans like that, just traffic wise, putting them in a position of doing like traffic regulation that I can kind of understand the thought process behind them being allowed to simply do that. But I would love to hear like counter ideas to that because I feel like there's got to be a better solution.

I: Sorry for shaking my head while you're saying that.

J: No, no, no, no, no. Because I agree. Because I can see the logic behind it, but I would like a better option.

I: I…. do not see the logic behind it because that doesn't mean that they're actually going to be blocking off the streets. In addition, advocates have been doing street takeovers for decades without cops trying to support, and they don't need their support to take over the streets. We are well equipped to do so without them. I don't see them being actually helpful or beneficial.

J: Yeah. No, I think that makes sense. I remember at some of the protests I've been to recently. Community organizers are really great at getting traffic, paused, getting people on maybe one half of the streets are traffic and go next to it that I think the community exactly…

I: Volunteering marshalling…

J: Yeah volunteer marshaling and having community organizers in charge of those things and even working with if we want to you know our eyes cross our Ts and actually get the local permissions to do these sort of things without, you know, having any conflicts. We can still like reach out to those local officials and say, hey, we're going to marshal our own event. Please do not send someone else to martial us. That's something that should be readily respected.

I: I completely agree. We have the ability to marshal our own events and we can make them stand out. We can deck them out in neon. It'll look fucking great in the summer. We can make an event that is for us, by us and safe for us as well. And we don't need cops to be fucking there and we don't need the money of these big ass corporations who are exploiting us to be there. You need kinksters to be there because kinksters are a part of the LGBTQIA2S+ space, and we are a backbone and a historical figure with the community. And kicking us out doesn't make sense, and it's just only adding to more infighting within our community.

J: And the infighting leads to not only detrimental consequences, but has its origins in some unsavory places. There are some articles we'll be linking on our website, talking about a lot of the No Kink at Pride discourse can find its origins back in conservative circles or right wing circles. And they have that goal of divide and conquer, right? Like we are stronger as a group. And if you start saying like, okay, no kink get pride, then what's going to get chipped away next and where do we again, where do we define kink? Are we going to say that like having anal sex is kinky because then you're going to get rid of all the gay men and then what are we going to have pride for? Or if we're going to say like, okay, cross-dressing is too kinky, then we're going to lose people that might someday come out as trans. And then what's the point of fucking pride like? The original 1969 riot was about people wearing clothes that they quote, weren't supposed to be wearing, unquote. So yeah, if you start taking away kink from pride, you start losing what pride is and who does that benefit? And by dividing us, who does that benefit?

I: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking of something like my favorite times at Pride. I know that I've talked about, like, me as a pony at Pride before. Have I got to do like full detail about that previously?

J: You've talked about it from like an esthetic perspective and you've also talked about it from the sense of like the kids loving it and the parents being stressed.

I: That but also that like I was able to pull my friend who's in a wheelchair for the entire parade, which made me feel strong and bad ass and made them able to actually keep up with the parade because they're often going really fast, march wise. And that's important. And I feel like that's the essence of pride, of like coming together sometimes and sily and whimsical ways to be able to take care of one another and to feel stronger and to have that support.

J: The unity that that brings. And I mean, God, that is such a perfect example, Iris, of just like very literally like being there and having fun and having a good time. But you're providing a service and doing something that's meaningful and a very visual representation of inclusivity. I love Pride Month. It's like, obviously I'm gay all year round, but there's something very exciting about Pride Month where I'm just like, All right, well, I'm going to very intentionally wear every rainbow article of clothing I have right in a row. You know?

I: Like how many rainbow obnoxious things can I wear all at the same time? And also the essence of pride is fucking advocacy. Like that's what it's supposed to be. And so how I've been celebrating this year ever since I've been back from Mexico, is doing more advocacy, doing queer liberation and anti-capitalist work. It's been really great. I'm having some of the best conversations and I kind of wish I started doing those sooner.

J: I think you're right. That's like a really meaningful part of pride and something that like, I love parades and I love how celebratory pride gets to be, but I sort of wish we had more intent with what we're marching for. You know, I wish I sometimes wish there was more meaning behind pride. And I get it. It's nice to celebrate. And we should celebrate because, oh, my God, we've come a long way. But there's still also a long way to go.

I: And I think that's coming up a lot this year between like the losing of privacy through the SCOTUS leak and like we haven't gotten the official verdict yet, but we're all sitting here reading like LGBTQ people and extra seeing it state by state. It's so important that we're doing this advocacy work. And I feel like this year, more so than the past decade, that I participated in pride that's coming through that like we need to be fighting for our rights, that pride, we're supposed to be having these kinds of conversations and advocating for legislation that allows for equality and moving forward and having not just representation but like tangible aspects that make our lives easier.

J: Yeah. In terms of especially like the sort of foot in the door approach that our rights being taken away has. You know, we're beginning to see a more clear pattern of starting with the SCOTUSh case, but also like you were saying, our state by state level and I think that kind of same logic can be applied to pride for kink as well. It's like you strip away kink from pride. What's going to be too weird or too not mainstream enough that will be stripped away next? And the idea that, again, if you're dividing us and cutting off chunks of things to make it more socially acceptable, and that really ties in with, you know, queer assimilation, but not really queer liberation at all. It's very much the antithesis of gay liberation. And I think that's something that, again, we're seeing this more in a modern trend with pride, but that's something that I think it's important for us to put at the forefront of our policies and our activism. TLDR How to respond to people saying no can get pride. Ask them why. Ask them to define what kink they're talking about, what is kink to them? And also, okay, where do we draw the line? And also why does anyone get to decide that?

I: Right? Like what makes your opinion the perfect opinion and is not allowing other opinions and communities to participate.

J: When someone says there should be no can't get pride, it's also a very online take, as it were, people that are running in actual queer activism groups or even queer social groups. There's bigger problems to tackle. There's other things we need to focus on. So when you hear those kind of opinions, let yourself take a step back from it emotionally, but ask them why and also which kinks and also why…why are cops more important than kink?

I: And where the fuck are you finding the audacity?

J: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Are you the marshal? Are you. Oh, my God. Are you the. The person in charge of this pride parade? That's so cool. The grand marshal of Weho Pride was Janelle Monae, and I did I did get to see them and it was very cool, not for very long that you know how, because gays don't know how to be on time for anything. Sometimes in pride parades, they'll be just like a five minute stretch where the street is empty because one part of the parade is moving too fast and one part was moving too slow. So her bus that she's on comes by at like covering up the gap of that bitch faster, too slow. So she just, like, sped by us and we're like, Was that Janelle Monae? We found her on Instagram live. It's like, Wow, that was Janelle Monae.

I: Oh, my God, that's amazing. I was really sad that I missed Billy Porter, Grand Marshal and Pittsburgh.

J: God, that sounds amazing.

I: I mean, he's local here. He does so many other things. I will get to him one today and it's going to be amazing. Until then, one day one day..

J: Pride is about having fun with your friends and seeing weird celebrities you didn't anticipate. You know, it's about learning about community groups. There is like a tree planting group that was in the pride parade I saw, which I was just like, I don't know what your deal is, but I'm so here for that. Rainbow shovels and we're talking about trees. It was so cute.

I: That is amazing. I fucking love that fucking love pride. Let's keep it. The parts of it that are at its core, the activism, the trans people, the people of color. The kink, of course.

J: Yeah. Pride. Pride is about…

I: Keeping a gay.

J: Keeping it gay! Keep it weird! Pride is not about fitting in with a dominant culture, like the fact that we have cultural acceptance and cultural celebration on a wide scale, largely depending on where you are. That's a good thing. But pride is still about it is about being counterculture

I: And anti-capitalist

J: And anti-capitalist. Agreed. Please, please remove the banks pride. If the banks would like to make a donation to pride and get nothing in return because that's how donations work. Sure, I'll take their money, but yeah.

I: Remember, if you're going to buy anything for pride, do it from like an actual LGBTQ owned organization. Kohl’s does not need your money. Target definitely does not need your money. I fucking love Target, but they don't need our money this month.

J: Support small businesses. Make your own queer stuff. Part of the history of the Rainbow Flag is actually the pink stripe was removed from the original an eight straight flag. Pink was removed because pink fabric was hard to find and target was not making these things for us. We made them ourselves. So, you know, get out there and make your own queer art, you know, be weird, have fun. Have fun and drink water and wear sunscreen. Oh, my God. Please reapply the sunscreen. You're going to think you have sunscreen on, but reapply it. Put it back on again.

I: Remember your EpiPens and your Narcan and a snack.

J: Bring a snack. Yes. Drink with….

I: Whether it is a snack you’ll eat late at night because fun times, or a snack that is nutritionally dense.

J: If you're going to drink, please drink responsibly and hydrate with water. Goddammit, not a red bull.

I: What about tea?

J: Tea is fine. A Red Bull. A Red Bull is not hydrating. But yeah, thanks so much for listening as we talk about our favorite things. I love pride. I love the history of pride. And I love talking. Talking, obviously, the science podcast. So if you've got a kinky question or a queer question or a question about pride or the history of pride, or a question about what kinks we should see more of at pride. Send us your queries, kinkyqueeries@gmail.com, or follow us on Twitter @kinkyqueeries. That's K I N K Y Q U E E R I E S. We'll have our next episode ready for your eager ears in two weeks. That will be sometime later in June because oh boy, I'm having a hard time editing these podcasts quickly. That's fine. I work…

I: Shit happens. And it's our month, which means we can be on our own fucking timeline.

J: Exactly. It's… We're gay. This is our month. If you would like the episode to air faster, send us a question. Respectfully, please don't yell at us, but definitely check out the original TikTok. This episode is based on it is by Pup Amp and we will have a link to it on our website, so go check that out.

I: Thank you Pup Amp.

J: Yeah, thank you for a really great TikTok and writing copy. So we didn't have to, you know, you had some like pre-cooked lines in there that we could just borrow and it was really great.